The squandered G5
If you just looked at the positive press going out on the G5, you could be forgiven for believing the G5 to be one blockbuster-selling piece of kit for Apple. However, this isn't really the case.
While it's gotten great press, when you actually look at the figures, it's pretty clear that it's been more than a little lackluster. Which isn't to dismiss the positive press, it's been pretty spectacular for a company with Apples' history. The idea of an "Apple Supercomputer" has been something of an oxymoron for a long time, especially given some of their earlier G4 advertisements. At the moment, it's not, which is super cool.
There have been some negatives, like basically being told by governments that their advertising was lying not quite truthful, or quiet articles basically saying that the G5 is not hitting expectations... but on the whole things like the Virginia Tech supercomputer have been fantastic for slowly shifting the perception of some of Apple's kit, and where it can be used.
If you'd have made a bet with most people as to whether or not Apple's towers would be powering one of the most powerful supercomputers on the planet in a year, it's a bet most people would have lost (including myself, and, if some of the interviews from the VT cluster's architect are to be believed, Apple also...). Some kudo's are in order there: Apple used to have one hell of a share in the scientific market, which slowly eroded over time, but it's now making some serious inroads back into. Credit where credit is due, you can at least use the words Apple & performance in the same paragraph without feeling queasy. Credit where credit is due.
But that's being squandered. Now, some of you are going to go "Microsoft shill! The G5 is selling tons more units than the G4! How much is microsoft paying you!", and that's fine. But let's take a look at the unit numbers by quarters for their towers, in thousands of units:
- 2002Q1 213
- 2002Q2 211
- 2002Q3 167
- 2002Q4 176
- 2003Q1 157
- 2003Q2 157
- 2003Q3 133
- 2003Q4 221 (G5 intro)
- 2004Q1 206
Woo hoo! When the G5 was intro'd, there was an instant 60% jump. How can that not be good? Well, it is good. However, you have to realize just how poorly the current G4 towers were selling. It isn't hyperbole to say they were selling incredibly poorly. The G5 has basically brought them up to 2002 G4 numbers, which aren't considered to be good numbers at all, even when compared to the heyday of the 2000-esque advertising boom.
It can't be stressed how poor a level sales of the G4 towers reached. We're not talking cube-esque numbers here, but it's obvious the only people buying them were people who had to have a mac tower, and couldn't wait. Most just weren't interested, no matter how much mac users talked about the "Megahertz Myth", it's fairly obvious that the price performance ratio was way out of whack. But, but the G5 is the fastest personal computer on the planet, right? So that should be taken care of... which is part of the problem: The G5 has not only failed analyst's expectations, it's fallen far short of Apple's own estimations which it gave to the analysts.
Apple's big line to the analysts was that people weren't buying G4's because of a perceived performance problem, the lack of native software for some of their core markets, and the huge advertising slump. They basically said the 1st two were fixed, and the 3rd was turning around bigtime, so bring on the upgrade churn as they believed there is a large chunk of their base who were waiting with baited breath to move on, and that the G5 was going to sell in fantastic numbers due to this backlog.
It just hasn't happened en-mass as they'd hoped, at least not yet. Some of it is dependent on 3rd parties, some of it is unavoidable, but some assuredly rests on Apple's shoulders, and some of it, while it may not be 'their fault', is still very much their problem when it comes to 3rd parties.
Now we don't know how they are doing this quarter, but we can infer that they aren't doing very well. They've been running promotion after promotion with them lately, and the G5 hasn't left Apple's front page with lots of life-altering quotes about it from various bigwigs... sure, since it's been 9 months since a real refresh, chances are they trying to clear out inventory before a refresh soon. But that usually involves some price cuts and perhaps a quick deal or two, but they are trying really damn hard to move units. Really hard.
So, if we can say that the we've established that the G5 sales are "underperforming", we should probably look at why that might be? Besides some of the obvious, the G5 is a very... perplexing machine in some ways:
- Odd initial launch lineup
They launched with single 1.6GHz, 1.8GHz & dually 2GHz. That was really weird, and arguably way out of whack. The top end was outselling the low end configs combined, by a huge margin, which is a pretty big clue stick that something is really wrong in the lineup. This has happened before. There was a time when Apple was releasing their high-end as a single proc system, and the rest were duals... which didn't exactly go over so well either. In the days of OS9 there was some justification for it, but not really with OSX: most people now know that duallies have massively better ROI, especially with with an OS that does its best to take full advantage of them. In this case, for several hundred dollars more, you just got a huge amount of extra power. The 1.6's & 1.8's weren't selling well, especially the 1.8's, they were just in this no-man's land of pricing. Apple stepped in and made the 1.8's duallies during a refresh, but now you have all these single 1.8's still in the channel (check any catalog or mac site). - Forget what we told you you wanted before...
It's a slightly larger case than the G4's that came before it, yet has drastically reduced expansion options when it comes to drives. There is no way a single serial ATA drive is going to saturate that bus. I don't think two even comes close. These cry out for RAID5, which would need a minimum of 3 drives. All you can basically get is software RAID 1 & 0, which for a machine in the G5's class is just kind of odd. To get RAID5 or other hardware raids you're essentially looking at firewire, which really adds to your costs and creates its own issues or you're looking at a very pricey external ultrascsi solution. Egh. Having only two drives is just very out of place in a machine of this caliber, and is perplexing. When you realize Apple tried to sell recent revisions on increasing drive bays, as well as dual optical, it gets more perplexing. Spending $3k on a large tower with two drive bays is just odd. - Saggy GPUs
Consumer-level, and dare i say close-to-cheapo-pc-level video cards in a workstation-class machine. $50 upgrade to something reasonable, $350 upgrade to a competitive card. 64megs of VRAM in a $3k computer that may be driving 2 displays unless you pay $350? Wtf? That's perplexing, especially for who these systems are geared to. Yeah it's fine if Apple has given up on the game market, but there are other reasons to want a more future-proof GPU and lots of VRAM... especially considering Quartz. - Product overlap
It's kinda weird how Apple went through so much trouble wiping out the deadzones from its product line, and has lately been blurring the lines all over the place. Part of this was out of desperation ("we can't compete on g4 towers, but we can build a decent laptop with their lower thermals- year of the notebook!"), but there's really a lot of overlap. Apple is talking up powermac users using powerbooks instead, but I don't really know about that. While I've seen it, and I'm sure there's some of that, but for their core content creation market the capabilities between a 1.25GHz G4 powerbook with a single slower drive and a dually G5 is pretty drastic. But I have seen a lot of people picking up a 17" or 20" iMac instead of a low end G5 w/apple display. - MHz stagnation relapse
When they did refresh the line (and surprisingly quickly) it was to go to 1.6 & dually 1.8 & 2GHz, which again, was kind of weird. To keep the MHz momentum up you would have thought there would have been some progression, if nothing else to help differentiate the low end from the iMacs. As it is, the G5's have been riding on 2GHz for over 9 months, meaning you can only coast for so long. - 1st gen issues haven't been fixed
The G5 hardware is still relatively immature, and hasn't yet had a good revision b or c. Some of the pro's out there were already pulling out their hair with the later G4 models (windtunnels, etc) but were a fairly well known quantity. The G5's have lots of new stuff, and there have been problems with heat, the fans, power supplies, logic boards, line noise... it's not to say that they're a POS, but they do have their first-gen-apple-problems. It's architecture is also very new, with 10.3.3 even bringing a big speed boost, and I'd have to be other apps will see revisions that will bring big gains... there are a number of people who don't want to buy 1st gen Apple hardware anymore, and Apple hasn't given them a revision to buy into. - Regaining trust is hard
This was something I had raised to me on a list, but makes a lot of sense... There was a ton of damage done to Apple's pro lines by their price/performance problems, even going back to when Microsoft was pushing hard into the content creation markets when NT/2000 hit the scene and Apple's next-gen OS strategy was starting to look DOA. Apple was able to rebuff that fairly well, both with lots of hype around rhapsody, showing they were going to have something to compete with NT/2000, and the fact that the media creation market, especially where print & advertising is concerned, is notoriously slow to move to anything. But the MHz problems dragged on for so long that a ton of people have jumped ship, and now they just aren't buying PowerMacs. They can make headway in bringing these people back, but it's going to take a sustained push as the leader, not one press release. Show these people where the momentum is, especially with AMD's new kit hitting.
All the above are reasons why the G5 is a bit of a perplexing machine, at least to myself, for various markets... but at this point there is another very serious problem they have to contend with: the 3GHz gap.
Lots of people are trying to spin things a bit, and say "Jobs said by the end of the summer, which is technically x... they have time" or similar things. Bullox. Jobs may have said the end of the summer, later, but that's not what he said at the introduction in and what was fed to the press.
The screen capture to the right should make it fairly obvious: Jobs said 3GHz within 12 months, on June 30th I believe. Which leaves a hair under 3 months for them to go from 2GHz to 3GHz. That is one pretty damn drastic jump in power in 3 months time, especially when you consider that the G5 has been out for 9+ months.
So, we were promised 3GHz by June 30th 2004, and there's no way of getting around that. Apple is either going to keep that promise, and lurch from 2GHz to 3GHz in 3 months (chances are it will be 'announced' but not ship for several months...) or they are going to break their promise. Again. Which would be... uncool.
Lots of people are saying things along the lines of "Saying they would hit 3GHz in a specific time frame was so stupid, now people aren't buying. They never should have said that". I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that mindset. Apple making that statement was the coolest thing they'd done in awhile, and make no mistake they said it for a reason: it was a mindshare ploy. And a needed one, and if they had kept up the momentum it would have been a great one.
Apple's performance problems had become deep-rooted, and really a part of the computer world's psyche. Oh sure, they'd have a jump here and there... and then another long plateau. 2GHz, while a big jump from where they were at, wasn't that huge in the grand scheme of things... they were practically in danger of their MHz being lapped before that. They wanted to have people talking about the G5 as a huge break with what came before, that this was the big break with their past problems of under delivering. They didn't want people thinking about the G5 as being at 2GHz, but on it's way to 3GHz. That it had momentum.
Which is a big deal, and, one could argue, a drastic change from their long-standing modus operandi which while great for hype, is really off-putting to a lot of the people they are trying to make inroads with. Actually keeping their word, and making their ship dates is another big thing with these people. It hasn't played out that way, and now we're stuck hearing pondering on what might be causing the holdup instead of how the G5 is coming on strong.
This isn't just a tower thing: take the server market. People were/are extremely leery of buying into something that won't see good support, and would be dropped at the first sign of trouble. Apple had some very, very nasty mindshare with people when it came to servers due to their past history. People have this image of them going on product flights of fancy, then dropping them dead when it doesn't seem to be working out. This is... disconcerting, and something that will take years to overcome.
Which goes back to the deep-rooted performance/price ratio Apple has been saddled with for ages. The G5 could have been a break from that image in more ways than one, as it had gotten that bad: we're more likely to believe someone has recovered when they have hit rock bottom. Instead, we're seeing signs of a relapse with the G5.
Now of course we're going to see a 3GHz G5. But here's the thing: people are already expecting them to announce it at 2004's WWDC, but actually ship it several months later. That makes me a little sad, as it feels as though an opportunity to really start to change people's perception of Apple has been squandered.
Comments (99)
Posted by: quaxor at April 9, 2004 10:24 PM
Who cares when they have 3GHz people why cant you understand that people dont buy buy macs for MHZ they buy them for the whole package.
Posted by: Eugenne Latosse at April 9, 2004 10:32 PM
I do not agree with everything you said but YES WHY ONLY TWO DRIVES what are they THINKING. It reminds me of when they removed audio in and then had to put it back on.
Posted by: Mindflayer at April 9, 2004 10:59 PM
Damn, dude. Take a breath and shake off that writer's cramp.
Yes, Apple is in for a PR problem if they don't do something soon. The G5s have been sitting at that level for a while, which brings to mind the stagnation of the G4s.
OTOH, it's amazing how many folks at work are buying G5s. They seem to be moving in places that used to be the domain of UNIX. Specifically, I have seen more and more of them on sysadmin and engineer desks as a cost-effective replacement for UNIX and Windows boxes.
Posted by: Chris at April 10, 2004 09:22 AM
I think that only bigger things await the G5. You bring up the rev B issue. I think once a revised edition comes out, there will be an explosion of sales. Because a lot of problems don't really surface until the machines are used hard, a lot of people are just holding off for the Rev B, when the only major changes are likely to involve a processor bump. I think that it is spectatcular that sales actually surged on a Rev A product, especilly one that was a major architectural departure from the previous model. I think that the Rev B sales will far outstrip the rebound that we've seen to date.
Posted by: Stevew at April 10, 2004 09:27 AM
Good summary of what's happening in Apple land.
The two entry level G5s are overpriced by a long shot. The architecture has some serious design problems, not least the fact that all Firewire ports share the same bus.
The consumer line should have gone G5 at MWSF at the latest and prices should have come down there too.
QC is severely lacking in both hardware and software. I'm waiting for a Rev B G5 with a competitive architecture (both on performance and price - all through the line, not just at the top end).
Posted by: Mr. Secret at April 10, 2004 09:35 AM
Jobs said on the 23th June:"Within 12 month we are at 3GHz"
He also said:" Apple delivering TODAY the worlds fastest computer"
AND WE ALL KNOW APPLE WAS SHIPPING THE G5 IN SEPTEMBER!!!
THIS MEANS 3GHZ IN SEPTEMBER 2004
Cheers
Posted by: Psymac at April 10, 2004 11:45 AM
If you look at the rumor sites and such, the revision b delay is due to difficulties with implementing the 970fx 90nm chip. THis is apparently why the G5 XServe was delayed, and now the G5 PM. However, I think its worth the wait,not only for the typical improvements seen in rev. b's, but also even cooler and quieter operation. That may lead of course more space and cooling capacity for more drives.
Posted by: Ron Bannon at April 10, 2004 12:17 PM
My school is almost 100% Wintel, but they actually bought and loaned me a 2 GHz Dual G5 -- it is super nice. One small step at a time, but I think others are starting to see why Macs are so cool. Many Wintel bigots won't even look at a Mac, so don't expect big changes. -rB
Posted by: Gary Politzer at April 10, 2004 12:54 PM
You hit the nail on the head. When the G5 was announced, I said to myself, "I'll wait for Rev B, thank you." At MWSF in Jan. 1999, I bought a Rev A Blue & White, top of the line. I was a new Apple customer and was all starry-eyed from the hype. Despite its well-known flaws & shortcomings, this machine is still doing the job well enough. Nevertheless, I will never buy another Rev A Apple product. My main complaint was the data corruption issue when adding a second ATA drive on the motherboard bus. Inexcusable for a major release of new architecture. Also the implementation of USB, a new technology at that time, is plagued with strange bugs. The G5 shows a lot of promise, but Apple is still playing catch-up, and using customers as beta testers. When professional users in a production environment invest in new equipment, they deserve nothing but performance.
Posted by: Mike Jackson at April 10, 2004 02:33 PM
I considered a G5, but the PCI architecture and the aforementioned drive issues with no parallel option left all my very expensive peripherals worthless. Only a business can afford such drastic upgrades enmasse. I will be buying one of those wall flower 1.8's (when it's $1200).
Posted by: dp at April 10, 2004 04:42 PM
nicely written article
I have 2 points to add:-
1 - In our workgroup of mostly pro/creative users, we've all pretty much opted for PowerBooks now, away from desktop macs. The recent generations of PowerBooks have everything we need - no need for a desktop machine so we can do 'proper' when we get back to the office. We do have a Power-Mac that is shared between workgroups for when we need to do a job that needs to be running over night or like long video editing sessions where the dual Cinema Screen are nice. I suggest PowerBooks may have had an impact on pro desktop. Many people I know in the corporate space that would always have both a laptop and a desktop, now only opt for the laptop (esp. since the recession).
2 - About expansion, hard drives etc again our work group relies on a batch of firewire drives that we share, its just way more flexible. Plus drives are getting bigger and cheaper all the time, so the need to incrementally supplementing internal storage in desktops can be done away with by just upgrading to newer, bigger and more reliable drive. Software RAID in OSX is good enough for most powerusers. Also, in the same way I don't know many (mac) laptop users that use PCMCIA cards for anything anymore, I don't know many desktop users that swap in/out PCI cards - you just buy a computer with the spec you want for todays work then just buy another one in two years. Maybe in the future with Xgrid Power-Macs won't be so important - just PowerBooks in the office space and Xserves in the backroom...
--
dp
Posted by: R Ledbetter at April 10, 2004 06:55 PM
And there is another issue: Macs are in service for much longer than PCs, so the need to upgrade is reduced. I went from an 8600 (which is still in service) to a G3 desktop to a G4/733, and I may go to a G5 this year, but I don't really have to. Much unlike PCs that can barely last two years.
Posted by: BDAqua at April 10, 2004 06:57 PM
For me, who's 19th Mac was probably his last... It's the QC problems combined with the near impossibility of getting Warranty Repairs that killed my appetite for always having the latest greatest Mac.
Of course the moving target called OSX is another complication, I can get work done without improvements, but this one step forward, two steps sideways, with an occasional step or two backwards just doesn't fit when sombody is standing there waiting for a job to complete.
From my Quadras all the way to my Beiges, every Mac was solid top quality, and all still runnung 24/7 by the way, but after the Beiges, every newer model purchased had more problems than the previous one... and now I'm not certain I'd even consider a Revision C G5... not that a B will ever come about again.
Posted by: yeller at April 10, 2004 07:22 PM
Everything you said is spot on, but I don't cards I don't buy macs to play games. But I can't believe it has been more than 9 months also and no one seems to be saying this as blunt as you. Everyone just seems to accept it and talk about the supercomputer, that is why I liked your "addict" analogy where you mentioned hitting rock bottom. People just accept Apple doing things they would not let other companies do because we love them. Perhaps we as users are the enablers? :)
I searched your site for Apple and there is lots of stuff, how come I haven't heard of your site before this? I really hope you keep writing these.
Posted by: Mindflayer at April 10, 2004 07:52 PM
The Drunken One is a Mac user, but he's very bitter. That's why the Mac sites never link to him - he does not drink the Koolaide.
Posted by: jade at April 10, 2004 10:07 PM
Thanks for the well-written article. And for being constructive. Alot of peopl make excuses for Apple's unconventional behavior...but there is a point where things get ridiculous. I think another huge factor in the poor sales of the g5 is really the PC factor. A lot of people in the taget demographic for the pro tower (the graphic designers and audio people) have alos been looking at the PCs. and when you see the specs of the single 1.6 and 1.8, and compare the price to PC-land.... well you are looking at double the price for half the specs. Even if the g5s are the fastest macs ever...maybe it is time to switcch. I have also encountered dome open-minded PC users who bought into the g5 hype, and want an Apple desktop, well they took a look at the price and went back to HP.
Even though at the top, the powermacs are price competitive with other topend workstations, but a few things are missing.... as you mentioned, expandability and vram and hard drive space.
Hopefully Apple will suprise us at WWDC with a huge powermac revision and have immediate availibility. But I don't feel optomistic about that...at least the availibility. 3ghz b summer is one deadline Apple doesn't want to miss.
Posted by: charles brandon at April 10, 2004 11:04 PM
I'm a long time Mac User and creative professional who relies on the stable of Apple products for my livelihood. Despite my loyalty to the platform, I have high doubts of Apple making any inroads in the pc market.
Frankly, rev B G5's could be at 4ghz and they still would not sell to make and difference. They could put a 970 in the imac and it too would languish. People don't buy Apple. They want cheap and they want windows. They don't care if its secuirity is compromised or about the threat of virii. They buy computers like their fast food. They'll take the 3.99 combo with a giant coke over the steak. We all know the steak is better, but they still line up at the drive through.
The g5 is nice hardware, and the PPC has great potential. But unless the case is stamped dell and intel inside, it is not going to sell.
BTW - as an aside, the Ford Pinto was a top selling car of its time. Amazingly, even after the car was reported to be an incendiary device, it still continued to SELL. Meaning, even if it is so BAD it could kill you, people would still.buy it. Moral: never underestimate the stupidity of the consumer. This is a lesson MSFT had mastered years ago.
Posted by: macYipper at April 11, 2004 02:08 AM
Amen. Preach on brother.
Posted by: Dorian Mattar at April 11, 2004 02:42 AM
That last comment is way off! In our office where most people were PC users, many, and I mean many, are switching to Apple. People are not putting up with the amount of viruses and pop-ups in the PC, the software that ships with PCs are also a huge factor in their decision. They are basically tired of software that doesn't work. So no, not everyone wants a combo, many do dine at fine restaurants and have pride in their machines. Don't get me wrong, Apple is still catching up, in certain areas, but I think that they are starting to get a hold of the game. OSX needs to be way faster in launching applications, the G5s need some work as well, but IBM is just putting the final touches on the new 90nm, and this stuff can NOT be done wrong, the machines will be ready when they are, but Apple will get their act together. Just look at the progress since Steve came back. The Mac is back, man. So hang on.
Posted by: Kevin G at April 11, 2004 03:55 PM
People are expecting Rev. B G5's when Apple is not in a rush to deliver. In comparison to high end PC's, the current dual 2.0 Ghz G5's still hold their own in performance. AMD and Intel have not been increasing the clock speed of their chips nor implementing a major architectural in the last 9 months to motherboards. AMD's Athlon 64 and Athlon FX have only improved by 200 Mhz or about 10% in that time frame. Intel has gone from 3.2 Ghz to 3.4 Ghz or about 6%. Intel changed CPU cores from Northwood to Prescott in the Pentium 4 but overall performance is unchanged. High end PC motherboards still utilize 400 Mhz DDR and AGP 8x with the compliment of S-ATA 150, Gigabit Ethernet, USB 2.0 and Firewire ports over the past 9 months.
The only advantage the PC realm has had is in the area of GPU's. PC's have a much wider selection at lower prices and performance is a notch higher than what Apple uses. Highend PC video cards top out at 256 MB of RAM, which would be nice for Quartz Extreme. However, I don't think having a 64 MB video card as standard in the G5's is a huge disadvantage either. Most PC's use onboard video (ie very crappy) or come with a 64 MB video card as well. The $350 price difference in Apple's video cards not only moves to 128 MB of RAM but to a Radeon 9800 Pro, one of the fastest GPU's on the market.
Most of the hardware innovations expected in the PC world over the past 9 months have met wtih delays (DDR2, PCI-Express, new GPU's and even Prescott was delayed several months). When Apple releases new G5's, they may not be a Rev. B to the current architecture but a completely new Rev. A motherboard. WWDC would about the same time PC's are implementing DDR2 and PCI Express - Apple has a chance to ride the bleeding edge along with the rest of the industry.
While Apple isn't changing hardware, they are innovating significantly on the software side. OS X 10.3 and iLife '04 are two huge examples of Apple moving forward. The PC world still lacks an equivelant to iMovie/iDVD on the same level. iTunes is availible for both platforms and my PC buddies love it. Apple needs to put its money in advertising its software more than its hardware.
Posted by: hayouk at April 11, 2004 04:03 PM
I have been looking at upgrading to a G5 but for me the real problem is legacy! I have a dual 1.25 GHZ, and could use the extra power of a dual 2 GHZ G5. But LEGACY!!!! My PCI cards are worthless in the G5, so is my video card, my ram investment and most of all my internal SCSI RAID. There just isnt room for it in the new G5, so I would have to get an brand new SCSI RAID5 card and a big SCSI enclosure. I can't be alone!
Posted by: True at April 11, 2004 10:07 PM
Readers should know that most of these geeks are coming from the battlefront over at arstechnica.com (real Mac hating freaks,)
Posted by: dat at April 12, 2004 01:33 AM
You sure? I found it from macsurfer :*)
Posted by: ed at April 12, 2004 02:46 AM
You mean they are not influenced by Mr. Job's RDF?
Posted by: Avon B7 at April 12, 2004 12:07 PM
First off, Hi BDAqua!
Well I'm not from ARS either.
No one can argue that QC has been slipping. Pro sales are down in a big way and the iMac/eMac lines are dead in the water.
Apple clearly thought people would be so into the new architecture that they would buy into the deal just becuase of that. Reality has been somewhat different.
People took a good look at the low end G5 1.6 Ghz and laughed it out of town. Not competitive on price nor performance and on top of everything Rev A. The 1.8 Ghz model was in a similar boat performance wise but at least had a better motherboard. When the 1.8 Ghz model went dual things picked up. The dual 2 Ghz started out as the best value machine for what was on offer but only a handful of users can really afford those machines.
But all that is in the past. Price/performance is out of sync AGAIN. What was once a reasonable deal on the dual models, no longer is.
Graphics cards have always been lacking. 'Transitions' never are transitions in the true sense of the word when it comes to Apple designs.
And all this is happening in a niche of a niche: Pro Mac desktops.
The consumer lines are a complete disgrace. Defunct technology almost everywhere you look. The 'you must pay for a monitor even if you don't want one' scheme of thinking is just plain old hat. Prices for what you really get are completely laughable.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks one the Mac side is OS X itself. Yearly full price major updates are just plain bad. They fragment the user base. They reduce the options for mac developers to make a living. They increase the workload. They cut into Apple's own margins by cutting people off from many of Apple's apps that are supposed to one of the crown jewels of the business model.
No sooner has the OS stabalised then the whole thing is back up in the air - and we are supposed to pay full price for the hassle. I didn't buy into Panther. Thousands more didn't either.
I vouch for making the OS a symbolic retail offering or having the option to BTO it off the bill of a new machine.
The more people on the same platform the better it will be for everyone involved. Then lengthen the period between major updates. Give people some breathing space.
Across the board Apple needs to re-define the terms 'pro' and 'consumer' and what the needs of these users are. Gone are the days when when consumer apps only needed consumer processing power. Nowadays the pro market is determined by software capabilities and expansion. Absolutely everybody should have access to the best processing power if they desire it.
If Apple doesn't get this idea then it might as well stop making 'consumer' apps that can make even the most powerful pro systems sweat. ie Garageband. Apps like iDVD, FCExpress etc should be able to tap into the same optimisations provided for their bigger cousins. It is just not acceptable that iDVD has performance issues on a G5. iPhoto took far too long to receive speed improvements.
AppleCare is so bad it's beyond a joke. Overpriced and underspecced. At the very least a substitute machine should be loaned to AppleCare users while their broken machine is repaired.
Then there's Apple and marketing. Another joke if you live anywhere outside the US.
The same old story repeats itself over and over again. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Yes, there have been improvements in some areas but in the bigger picture more needs to be done. Much more.
Posted by: sHurse at April 13, 2004 07:39 AM
I got here from xlr8yourmac. Someone must hate d.b. if they posted this on battlefront! :D
Thank you for the great read. It was exceptional. And d.b. I bet you are right about them announcing three GHz at the developers conference and shipping in september.
But where does this "nasty mindshare" server talk relate to? I believe the XServe was their first real server and before this they used standard towers. What is the problem here?
Posted by: Babasyzygy at April 13, 2004 10:44 AM
There's another big factor holding back G5 sales, I think. The Rev B issue is only one of the two reasons I haven't.
The other is the question of Virtual PC.
If I'm going to shell out that kind of money for a high-end Mac to replace my dual 1GHz "wind tunnel" G4, I'm going to need to be able to run certain Windows apps, that's all there is to it. Once Virtual PC works on a Rev B G5, I'll buy one. Not before.
Posted by: George at April 13, 2004 11:00 AM
Most of the artists/designers I know are moving to PowerBooks with external Cinemas. PowerBooks have enough power for everything the designer class needs. About the only ones I know going with the G5 are in the production department where they need the power for very large photoshop jobs. I think PowerBook sales have definetly hurt G5 sales.
Plus, in production, there has been a lot of delay because of drivers for image setters and all the other little things. It takes time for everything to align to make the upgrade.
Posted by: Etan at April 13, 2004 11:01 AM
Well said, bravo.
Posted by: Tortuga at April 13, 2004 11:02 AM
Honestly, a lot of the computer market seems to be slowing down. It isn't just Apple. The last big announcement coming out of the Wintel side has been x86-64. Longhorn is getting long in the tooth, and it hasn't been released yet. Heck, Intel's biggest marketing push is for Centrino, which is more efficient than P4. It seems like there's become less interest, even, in having ever faster processors, unless you count gamers (and even that seems to be more video card focused today anyway) or you count creative/scientific workstation types.
The interest seems to point more at power saving or money saving. It's more value oriented than pure performance oriented. It's seems like a trend more similar to how we regard cars.
Posted by: ecammit at April 13, 2004 11:49 AM
One thing that no one has mentioned yet is the overall effect and timing of the economy on Apple's sales. If you are going to shell out the money for a top of the line Apple, you better be damn sure you have that money. With the economy still in somewhat of a slump, the perpensity to buy big ticket items is much lower than it should be. People are either holding their money or spending it on cheapers items to bide their time. The common phrase, "I'll wait for 3 GHz", or, "I'll wait for rev B," may actually be overshadowed by, "I'll wait until I have more money." Now with the rising gas prices, people's monetary spending will see another slight decline. Although intereste rates are still low, for most, taking out a loan for a new top of the line Apple is not prefereable to buying a cheap Wintel.
Posted by: zpok at April 13, 2004 11:58 AM
I enjoyed the article, not because it was negative, but because it was accurate and blunt. I however have no doubt Apple will surprise us again.
I'm not an expert and can't say what will get Apple its 10% market share, but I think the time is right to make a real PC, a real Dell contender.
By that I of course mean a cheap screen-less box. Not a Cube (I love mine, but Cubes didn't sell, so they must be bad ;-) but an eMac/iMac without the screen.
With a G5 processor of course, the one that's advertised and got so many positive reviews...
I can't understand people buying screen after screen when jumping from imac to imac or portable to portable. It's a bloody waste.
I have here under my nose a 4 year old Apple Studio Display, the LCD just before the gorgeous plexi LCD's hit the market. I don't want to "upgrade". It's a good screen. It cost me a bundle.
Apple might not be interested in this market, for good reasons for all I know, but I think a lot of other people are interested.
Posted by: badturtle at April 13, 2004 12:09 PM
I can't argue that G5s don't sell very fast. I work at a major computer store. We have PCs and Macs. Lately, I have been selling Macs more than PCs. Most people will switch when they have someone explain how little trouble they are compared to a common Windows box. The best seller seems to be the $799 eMac. iMacs sell pretty good too, with the 17" model being popular. The average switcher is someone who wants to get on the internet, but their old computer died because of Windows security problems. They are looking for a cheap PC. I usually find them looking at machines in the $400-$600 range. These are the easiest to switch. Then there are the people who want a video editing machine. I show them a PC for around $1400, then explain how they need to add about $800 in software to equal the iMac in capabilities. Then, they buy an iMac. I have probably sold 3 or 4 G5 machines since they came out. That is equal to the total number of Macs I have sold in the last two days, mostly to new users.
Posted by: lstereo at April 13, 2004 12:15 PM
I have 3 G5s - a single 1.8, dual 1.8 and dual 2.0 - and wouldn't trade any one of them for anything in the world. These machines are seriously fast, and the OS is incredibly robust. I do hardcore scientific computing and cannot find a platform that produces as much bang-for-the-buck.
More than a speed-bump, I am waiting for truly 64-bit MacOS X.
This marketshare thing is the stupidest idea in the world. Its like saying a film is good simply because it is a good opening weekend at the box-office. Sure that's good for Fox News and CNN but we're supposed to be thinking people.
Marketshare only becomes an issue if it hurts Apple's ability to make machines that work.
Posted by: Mike @ work at April 13, 2004 12:48 PM
Personally, I am waiting for the money to buy all this (which will happen by december). And as for computers, it's ALWAYS the same thing: you have to commit yourself to the moment and not wait. There are always good reasons to wait to buy a new computer. If you don't have an equivalent good reason to buy it NOW, you should wait and shut yer yapper and not moan about it.
My computer is a Pismo G3 400. It has served me quite well. I bought it when they just went out ... and have seen little reason to change it until the beginning of the year. Even now I'm still considering upgrading it to a G4 550 (thx, Daystar). But the pieces are starting to fail too ... so that does it for me.
I agree to most of the article, that said. Quite interesting.
Posted by: mike at April 13, 2004 12:51 PM
Marketshare is important. It's not profit margin that funds research, it's total profit. Total Profit is related to Total Sales * Profit Margin.
It's important to have more money for research. Otherwise how do you keep ahead of the other guy?
Posted by: Adam at April 13, 2004 01:13 PM
I got here from MacSlash.
Most Mac owners I know, love the machines, but are perennially frustrated by the company. I don't own a G5, because my G4(AGP)450 and my Cube450 and my Ti1Ghz work just fine for everything I need them to. However, I agree with Drunken completely.
Posted by: Me at April 13, 2004 01:27 PM
Personally, I'm waiting for Apple to reverse their policy of making great highend machines and then crippling them for the consumer market to creating solid consumer offerings that scale upwards.
Posted by: m-one at April 13, 2004 02:12 PM
To be fair, most people don't need a mac but every 3-5 years.
By that time, the OS and/or the hardware gets long in the tooth.
G4 sales were/are low because: do they reeeaaaly need it?
Most Mac Vets know never to get 1st gen anything- and are not afraid to say so. The economy is another issue. Most would rather hold out on two or 3 revisions, if they know that a new platform will cost them far more than the price tag in 3rd party software/hardware issues.
Now all we need is another overpriced cube and neuton and we will have fun listening to those quaterly meetings...
does anybody agree with any of this?
Posted by: amusing at April 13, 2004 02:22 PM
Rants like these really make me question why the user bothered to post them. Mostly what it does is make everyone pay attention to the poster, briefly. Was anyone here's opinion changed?
Is it making any impact at all that this guy's critisizing the fact that Apple has shipped 427,000 G5s (scroll up) in two quarters, up from 290,000 G4s in the previous two quarters?(or, ignoring the quarter right before the G5 shipped, 314,000 G4s.)
His point about the G5 sales "underperforming", which he then uses as a base for the rest of the argument, is *not* established. The fact that Apple raised its' desktop sales numbers back to where they were two years before the G5 is *not* a failure; especially considering the average lifespan of a Mac is 3 years. This could be telling us that most of the G4 purchasers from two years ago haven't bought their G5s yet, but our blogger is choosing to say that increased sales somehow equal underperforming sales.
Welcome to the creative world of spin on statistics.
Posted by: charles at April 13, 2004 03:01 PM
hey man relax, i shelled out the mula for a dual two and am more than happy. im a graphic designer, and yes i use both mac and pc before ya accuse me of bias, but when i looked at it the fact was for the performance and future exspandability and compatability with software the price was on par with anything windows could offer. ive gone from my old blue and white g3 which was dieing trying to render video for me, to a machien, that almost apears to be laughing at the task. and give steve a break man he has a few months to get to the 3.0 ghz mark, it willl probably be anoced at the wwdc this summer. come on man just relax, go o krispy kreme or somethin, have a donught and a cup of coffe
Posted by: a kaleberg at April 13, 2004 03:38 PM
There is a lot to the Powerbook theory. We have three PBs, For web surfing, word processing, iTunes, DVD watching and the like, 500MHz is plenty of power. For iMovie, Photoshop and iDVD on a consumer level (6M-pixels is a big picture, 15 minutes is a long movie), 1GHz is plenty. Sure, faster is better, but when does one stop noticing?
The used to run articles about supercomputing and they'd say, well, if we had a 100MFLOP machine we could design airplane wings, if we had a 500MFLOP machine we could design entire airplanes, if we had a 1GFLOP machine we could design helicopters and so on. Well, there is a similar chart for consumer computing and 500MHz means easy web browsing, 1GHz means easy iMovie. Sure, Garageband needs 1.5GHz, but with the realm of existing applications, why does J.Q.Luser need a 2GHz or 5GHz machine?
Sure, gamers need lots of ops, but there are cheap boxes and boards that do games just fine. My eyes sort of max out at 30fps, but I suppose 60fps would be nice. Are there really people out there who can tell 60fps from 90fps?
There is Garageband, but would 2GHz do it? What about GarageSymphony? Would it need 5GHz? Remember, the first and second violinist play from the same score.
If I am going to move up from the 1-2GHz range, rather than waiting until my processor rots out, I need a compelling application.
So, software guys, what are the jApps and kApps?
Posted by: Drew at April 13, 2004 03:45 PM
I agree with amusing. Apple has actually done very well with the G5. I personally know of many unix shops (and even some wintel) that have bought several dual 2 GHz G5s and have G5 Xserves on order (like I do). I'll admit, Apple's model lineup is a bit odd. Why not just make all models dual (with a lower price on the low end). Also, they should have introduced the G5 at a slightly higher GHz, but come on, even the 1.6 GHz G5 I have is blazingly fast. I am very happy with it. As for the G5 motherboard, the architecture is very current compared to the wintel universe. It uses a hyper transport bus similar to what AMD now uses with their 64 bit chips. Does Intel have a 1 GHZ Front side bus? No. I get the feeling the blogger didn't do much research before writing the article.
I am sure Apple will be coming out with something that falls inbetween 2 and 3 GHz very shortly and then 3 GHz in the fall. Also, the eMac (I own the 1 GHz model with 1 GB Ram) was just updated today so check it out. Very nicely priced and updated.
Posted by: Sean Straus at April 13, 2004 04:21 PM
I think he's mising a big point. I think desktop sales are on the decline in general. Especially as most of apple's sales are still to home users. I think if we compare these numbers to LAPTOP sales when the g5 laptops come out- you'll see a big difference in the jump. I think more and more of apple's revenue will come from laptops instead of desktops.
Posted by: Andrew at April 13, 2004 04:57 PM
Sing it brother! I might add that the OS is following a similar track. I grudgingly bought Panther after 3rd party software starting being introduced as "Panther only". Well, after a corrupt b-tree disaster and a clean install, the OS runs okay, but the significant UI changes in Panther from Jaguar drive me nuts! (Unless you're joe six-pack, using the sidebar sucks! Best OS my ass-- the increased speed is the only good thing to come out of Panther. I almost reinstalled 10.2). If they pull that kind of stunt again with 10.4, they will make me into full time linux user. Why should I pay for an upgrade that makes me less productive? That's why I don't use Windows!
Someone once told me that Apple has lots of good ideas, but has difficulty on the follow-through and the follow-up. I think we're seeing that right now and I'm getting pretty tired of it.
Posted by: Mindflayer at April 13, 2004 05:34 PM
OMFG NO YUO!!!!!1111one
Posted by: apex at April 13, 2004 05:35 PM
There is more to Ars than the battlefront! I came here from the Apple Marketshare thread:
Good job on this article.
Posted by: mike swimm at April 13, 2004 05:38 PM
i love apple and use their products over all others.
having said that i do believe they are one of the worst run companies. the stuff they get away with is ridiculous. its time to get some real business people at apple and quit with the fascism. the "ibox" fiasco is a perfect example of apple thinking they are smarter than their market. with such a miniscule percent of the computing marketshare one would think they would take better care of us.
Posted by: Gerard at April 13, 2004 06:19 PM
I have been looking at upgrading to a G5 but for me the real problem is legacy! ...My PCI cards are worthless in the G5, so is my video card, my ram investment and most of all my internal SCSI RAID. There just isnt room for it in the new G5, so I would have to get an brand new SCSI RAID5 card and a big SCSI enclosure. I can't be alone!
Posted by: hayouk at April 11, 2004 04:03 PM
Um... no.
PCI-X is completely backward compatible with PCI, you can simply plug your old cards in to then new system.
The AGP pro slot is backward compatible with your presumable AGP card.
As for your RAID... leave it in the old system and connect the two systems together. Put the old system in Firewire target disk mode and use it as the RAID host, or boot it in to normal OS X mode and connect the two systems up with 1000bT, or Firewire 800 networking in the control panels.
Yea, your RAM will be useless in the new system, but leave it in the old system or sell it on eBay. Have you noticed the high prices that you can still get for a recent G4 system at auction?
Posted by: David at April 13, 2004 06:23 PM
I'm waiting for a G5 consumer box or for the PowerMac to come down to $1500 for a dual processor box, any speed. There's no way I'm dropping $3000 on a computer with no monitor, not anymore. Apple needs to realize its core business is computers, at least for now it is. Still, even though I prefer Apple to buying a PC, and I'd love to have a PowerMac, it's out of my league. Michael Dell said that Apple has priced themselves out of the mainstream and I couldn't agree more. I'm the mainstream and I want to buy an Apple but Apple won't let me!
Posted by: Grant Gorton at April 13, 2004 06:24 PM
From my experienced, apple hasn't had a problem with performaced since the g4.....my 1ghz powerbook g4 runs faster than my 1800+ athalon...or at least as fast.....
And I do agree that they shouldn't have said anything about a 3ghz G5.......they're not doing very well on those kinds of things....but, I imagine stuff will pick up, and things will start going very well for apple..that is if they just fix a few problems....
I was stictly a pc user for seven years....now I have both...but like my mac better....so I guess all I'm saying is apple makes an amazing computer, though if it didn't have the os their hardware wouldn't matter...well...aside from their industrial design.
And I don't care what anyone says, apple runs their business better than microsoft, it's just that microsoft is so huge, that the same mistakes that look huge for apple, don't even get brought up to microsoft.
I'll always have a windows pc, and I'll always have a mac, with whatever os it has. Oh yeah, and I definently beleive the big seller for apple is their iBooks and Powerbooks; everybodies getting one just about..especially in the college world.
Posted by: Rejean at April 13, 2004 06:28 PM
I don't understand why Apple's market share is still an issue after so many years. Apple has what little market share it has and seems to be content with it. Unless Apple is willing to move G5s like iPods, it will never be a pervasive platform-the entry point for average users (basic internet/digital content) is too expensive. If Apple really wants to impact the PC market, they should have software/hardware bundle offers. for a G5 1.6Ghz, besides ilife it should include an ipod and FCPExpress and double the memory, Virtual PC, MS Office, a monitor, a warranty and free shipping- all for $1799.00. For $3000, a 2ghz dually really should include 1Ghz of memory, FCP4 and DVD Studio Pro. Or even further, let customers have greater choice in what they can include in their package deal. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me with real value deals, the profit Apple loses per item could be made up by volume. There is a reason Dell is arguably the number one PC maker. Cheap package deals, more value for the money, bottom line. And I'm not saying Macs don't have value- of course they do. But Apple has to be willing to compete with $500 PCs running $500 or less software. I get the feeling many people who are hedging on G5s (whether current models or the Rev Bs) are between the price lowballers and those who can afford to by the G5 of their dreams outright.
Apple could stand to learn their own lesson. Yes they make practically no money from iTunes sales after the record companies take their cut, etc., tec., but Apple now has a good corner of the portable music market thanks to iTunes and
iPods. And that will grow among PC users now that the iPod and iTunes are available on the PC.
BTW, I only own a G4, I don't work for any PC manufacturers.
Posted by: WhoMe at April 13, 2004 06:36 PM
The proposed roadmap for 3 GHz is supposed to rely on IBMs 980, not the 970, so, as long as they are up to date with that, it's not really on Apple, it's on IBM to accomplish this task. Everything relies on IBM supplying and having the Power5s ready by June.
Posted by: STEVE at April 13, 2004 06:58 PM
The only real problem with the Mac G5, G4, G3 or any other Mac that has ever been released is the PRICING. Computer parts are manufactured so inexpensively these days, that it is unbelievable to see that Apple still prices their computers for way more than they are worth. For $3000.00 you can get the fastest PC available with all the best cards, maxed out memory, and a nice flat panel monitor. Why Steve MO-Ron Jobs and all the execs at Apple do not see this is beyond me, but maybe it is because they are overpaid and CAN afford anything no matter what the price. Their CUSTOMERS cannot do this. LOWER THE FU@KING PRICE, and max the systems out with this price. If they did this they could squash the Bill Gates Monopolized PC market share!
Posted by: Monger at April 13, 2004 06:59 PM
Chill, dudes.
Posted by: AMSR at April 13, 2004 07:01 PM
I can tell you straight up what is keeping all those ad agencies and creative firms from buying G5s. Its called Mac OS 9. Now before you call me out and say that steve declared OS9 dead two years ago, hear me out. Just because OS9 is dead for developers does not mean that it is dead with customers. Remember that the OS X version of quark *just* came out this past year. You can probably imagine that all of these ad agencies couldn't have moved to newer hardware even if they had wanted to, because OS9 would not run on it. That being said, they have probably only just begun to consider a move to the G5, and thus OSX. As much as Apple doesn't like the word, ad agencies are enterprises and do not buy like consumers do. They typically lag upgrades, especially OS upgrades because they are costly to roll out, costly to train people, and often break workflows and applications. Because a move to the G5 means a move to a whole new platform, it makes a lot more sense that all of these creative companies are taking their time to update.
And you know one other thing, all this time Apple spent not focusing on "enterprise" integration is coming back to bite them. While the creative departments were using OS9 in their world, the rest of many of these companies have moved to put in PC infrastructure such as Active Directory and tracking, accounting, and business applications that depend on it. This puts Apple in the position of having to fit into a PC network by default, even in companies that traditionally are not dominated by PCs. And once the infrastructure is there and the admins are hired, its very hard not to succumb to "PC creep".
Apple has an uphill battle on this one. It will not be won on the hearts and minds of consumers delighted by Apple Retail stores and iPods. Instead it is going to take a lot of hard work by direct salespeople, consultants, system integrators/administrators, and the credibility that products like XServe bring to the platform in terms of long term support, services, and customer centricity.
Posted by: Geoff at April 13, 2004 07:07 PM
It is hard to argue with this article but what is the point, does anyone believe what Apple says anymore? They are just milking their product line for as long as they can. They always do that. They are good at doing it and it helps keep them profitable.
amusing: His point about the G5 sales "underperforming", which he then uses as a base for the rest of the argument, is *not* established.
I think it is ok to say that sales are disappointing, I have seen others say it. Here are some links, CBS Marketwatch, Motley Fool
I would say that is established. We will have to see if they have met their new target of 200,000 for the quarter tomorrow. I think they are projected to sell 195,000 and the reason for the promotions is to move that extra 5,000.
It is hard to know what DB intended with this article until he replies (I sent him an email) but maybe you are making this sound more negative than it really is. This article seems to be tough love not anti-apple.
Posted by: Becky at April 13, 2004 07:16 PM
Michael Dell said that Apple has priced themselves out of the mainstream and I couldn't agree more. I'm the mainstream and I want to buy an Apple but Apple won't let me!
Where can I see that he said this? I think there is some truth to it, it would make sense. Not everyone can afford a 1,000 dollar computer and less can afford a 1,500 dollar computer and less can afford a 2,000 computer.
Posted by: gerard at April 13, 2004 07:33 PM
The only real problem with the Mac G5, G4, G3 or any other Mac that has ever been released is the PRICING. Computer parts are manufactured so inexpensively these days, that it is unbelievable to see that Apple still prices their computers for way more than they are worth. For $3000.00 you can get the fastest PC available with all the best cards, maxed out memory, and a nice flat panel monitor...but maybe it is because they are overpaid ...
Posted by: STEVE at April 13, 2004 06:58 PM
First: SJ takes an annual salary of $1.00, yes he bonuses, perks and such, but he isn't payed much in relative terms.
Second: Let's not start the whole price war thing here, it's been conclusively shown, repeatedly, that for the hardware included Mac G5s are not at a price premium to any COMPARABLE generic wintel computer. And I include the single source warranty as a major feature.
Posted by: tf23 at April 13, 2004 07:44 PM
Nice article. I don't know that I would agree with the analysis of the sales figures, however. But they do need to hit 3GHz soon, and they do need a lower cost headless entry-level mac that can directly compare with Dell's low end machines.
Posted by: David at April 13, 2004 09:22 PM
Here's the article where Michael Dell said Apple has priced themselves out of the mainstream:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-04-04-exec-insana-dell_x.htm
I couldn't agree more. I just bought an eMachines laptop with an Athlon 64, 512 megs ram, 60 gig hard drive and Radeon 9600 for $1499. I would have rather bought a PowerBook or PowerMac, but other than the 12", there's nothing at that price point.
Posted by: germ at April 13, 2004 09:28 PM
I think you completely underestimate the last dual-processor G4 towers Apple made. I mean the ones with FW800, which have been in production for only ~4 months or so. I have one of those, a dual 1.25 GHz, and it works beautifully. No issue whatsoever with the fans (they have been fixed in that update). Still pretty fast (not as fast as a dual G5, of course). Very expandable: I have 3 HDD and 2 optical drives. Runs Virtual PC perfectly. I am happy for now.
Posted by: Mindflayer at April 13, 2004 10:09 PM
Guys - this is a BLOG, not an article in The Economist.
That said, some of you make some really good points. While I do believe Apple needs to grow market share a bit, it's not that essential. The reference to luxury and extreme luxury cars has been done to death, but it's relevant, as with any product.
Posted by: S2K at April 13, 2004 10:14 PM
Think people, you're not paying just for a computer, you're paying for an Apple. That's paying not just for the actual components, but for the sleek design. And a maxed-out PC actually costs.. more than $50,000 from VoodooPC, so I don't know what you mean. Apple is in the same leagues as VoodooPC and Alienware - see how closely priced those are.
Posted by: seabass at April 13, 2004 10:41 PM
Yo
Thanks for saying it like it is.
Been using Mac's since the first, and been trough it all with that sh1t.
This is why I hate peops who apologize for Apples f4ck ups all the time.
I mean they had a hit with the G5 and needed to be proactive about keeping the excitement going, with fast revs and constant incremental upgrades.
Instead they are falling back into the never ending G4 snooze fest.
I mean X86 users have a constant stream of speed up announcements and they believe they are the only game in town, I mean read this:
Apple can't afford a slow down again, perceived or real.
Further more some of your other points about value are really important.
If these are workstations then consumer grade parts should not be options for these.
I mean the parts we are using are now industry standard so we can't hide behind obscure mac only brands anymore, to pretend that we are competitive. an ATI9600 64mb is the same performance wise wether it is on a pc or a mac.
These machines should only come with the highest end consumer cards, at least a Gig of Ram, and 200Gig drives at least, to be competitive with other workstations in their price range.
To push the envelope further true high end workstation options need to be made available.
If these machines are to be used in HIGH end environments making CAD/CAM/3D animation environments than they need to have parts available which the competitors offer.
look at IBM/SUN/HP/SGI/BoXX, and even Dull workstations--those with dual Xeons, or Dual Opterons, man even the slow Mghz Sgi and Suns look better.
Dell Workstations
IBM Workstations
Sunblade 2500
SGI Workstations
For G5's to look competitive with other workstations, they need to offer ATI FireGL, nVidia Quadro, or 3Dlabs Wildcat graphics cards; they need to offer internal hardware RAIDS or the room for at least 5 drives, and with FiberChannel/SCSI320/etc options.
Apple also should be boosting high end content creation package deals. The High end market is really clear unlike the consumer market, and providing complete solutions in this market is easier and a very effective way to address perception issues.
They need to have Maya+FCP+SHAKE deals.
They need to offer complete Pro Audio bundles.
Complete HIGH end image Creation bundles.
(on the APPLE site, PROMAX and other resellers don't count, even if most pros buy from VAR's it's important for the publics PERCEPTION for the Apple store to offer these options)
I mean they can do it.
why don't they?
Oh they need to Buy Alias right now. wtf is their problem.
if Alias refuses, by the company that makes Houdini, or bargain with Autodesk and Buy Discreet, or offer to port 3Dstudio and Autocad to osX. whatever they need to do some work to be the full service content creation company.
the thing is they can do it.
why don't they?
Shyte.
I want to win.
I'm tired of being second fiddle.
Why can't re really be the BMW or computers?!@$!$!$%^%^*^&(**&
:-|
Posted by: evan matiatos at April 13, 2004 11:09 PM
A Education Apple Rep from NJ has told me Apple sent them a dual core machine for testing a power school server.
So if i understand it The dual processor G5 will be running at 8Ghz. Is that correct?
Posted by: charles brandon at April 14, 2004 12:17 AM
It's funny - Joe Average will kick down 35K for a low tech pick up truck, 4 K for a HD TV, and expect to pay 399.00 for a computer.
I'd love it if Apple just starting giving away things. Better yet, why not kick down that 4 billion and pay people to use macs. Market share would soar. And 1 year later they'd be gone.
Ask yourself this - are you willing to work cheaper? Thought not.
Posted by: Myekie at April 14, 2004 12:50 AM
I agree totally
I wish apple would just release Mac OSX for x86 hardware. I'm sick of the Apple BS regarding their desktops. I have been burned by the last 2 desktops I purchased. My g5 is just a computer in my opinion nothing special. It needs more expansion (HD // GP // 2optical drives). The good thing about PC is that you "Custom Build" your machine for your needs.
Apple just does some weird stuff that is perplexing.
Myekie
Posted by: Valkyrie at April 14, 2004 03:54 AM
Bought a DP 867 G4 MDD PowerMac two years ago -- maxxed out the RAM to 2 GB, added 4 internal 7200 250GB hard drives, Radion 9000 with 64 MB VRAM.
It does everything I need to do -- OSX 10.3.3 runs predictably and reliably -- NEVER crashes.
The DP 867 G4 replaced a late-1995 PowerMac 8500 that had been upgraded with a G3 400 MHZ CPU, dual VooDoo 3 video cards, and 768 MB RAM -- AND that still runs OS 9 apps very well, indeed.
Seeing that I kept the 8500 for 7+ years before replacing with the DP 867, it will probably be 2008 before I need to replace the DP 867 - give or take a couple of years . . .
The DP 867 G4 PowerMac runs large file Photoshop tasks with little effort. iDVD and iMovie run well enough, though certainly not as fast as they do on a DP G5 -- for example, I have to wait 140+ minutes for iDVD to burn a one-up 60 minute final DVD. 140 minutes is not so long to wait
iDVD always works, never burns a coaster -- and iDVD can burn in the background while I web cruise, email, or other foreground tasks -- such is the capability of a this "lowly" dual-processor 867 G4 PowerMac.
I will wait for the late-2005 Gx Macs to emerge -- this will allow for very affordable, Rev. C G5 DP machines to be available from Apple.
Valk
Posted by: WJ at April 14, 2004 04:01 AM
You hit the nail on the head. Limited drive support, whacked price/performance/underwhelming video etc. You missed one item that someone else mentioned. Virtual PC for G5. Before everyone turns on the flames saying "screw PC software," remember that most companies have a need to run PC software. Without a compatibility solution, G5s won't be used in some companies. My company for example is one of those... I CAN'T upgrade my Mac.
Apple let Virtual PC slip through their fingers. They should have bought the software/development team when they had the chance.
As for the other alternatives: Blue Label, are they still around? Zero quality. A waste of time.
Bochs? Not a chance. It's so slow that it's a joke. So, I'll just sit and wait for MS to release the new version.
In the meantime, nice article.
Posted by: David at April 14, 2004 07:56 AM
Very good article. Much of what I've been saying (and booed for) too. You very well summarized the reasons why buying a G5 now is a no-no for me. Essentially, the price doesn't live up to what you get. One optical drive just doesn't work etc.
I think we're probably going to see some major changes in architecture which will allow for more drive bays, have PCIX across the board. Also, I think we need a price drop. It's nice to have an option for 'not top of the line' graphic cards but you can't charge an absolute premium price for it.
As Charles Brandon noted, cars are more expensive, but we're not really talking about $399 here. The G5s are overpriced and that's already true of the US. Take a look around the globe, it's frightening. I don't wanna work cheap, but there's a limit to what I'm prepared to pay as a premium to be able to use Apple's software. As it's their *software* I really want.
Posted by: drunkenbatman at April 14, 2004 08:27 AM
Apologies... I'm around, I've just been very busy with work and life and all. There also wasn't much more for me to add, as much depends on what happens after the bell today when we see how the G5s are doing.
As to my intentions with this "article", there were/are none. :) This is my personal blog, and I happen to use macs and post about them from time to time. This was simply an (obviously) quickly reworked email I'd sent several weeks ago to one of the many listservs I'm on regarding sales of the G5.
I'd been feeling guilty for not posting more frequently on my blog, so I figured I could take several posts on various topics like the G5/powerbooks/OSX/apple/etc, wrap them up in with some extra text & pictures and be able to write my blog off my mental todo list with a modicum of effort.
If I'd have had any clue that this was going to be read by this many people I would have, you know, spent some time actually checking the grammar and all. At this point I'm just glad most people don't think I have turrets or the like, and will probably wait a few awhile to post the others.
This all seems to have run its course, but four quick things...
- It'd be great if when you are going to post a link, you could make it an actual html link and don't just paste a big url in as text. Appreciated. :)
- My nick doesn't come from the first mental association you'd prolly leap to, and those who need to know what it is associated with were, well, there... and while I appreciate the pictures of people in their utility belts it is a bit misplaced. So let's just pretend that didn't happen.
- English is the only language I have real access to, and I just don't have time to babblefish all of these spanish/japanese/german emails... so if I don't reply, apologies. :( If you could babblefish'em before you send that'd be great. :)
- Thanks for all the great emails & comments. Things have settled down, but for awhile there were 6 emails for every comment. I'll reply to everyone (well, maybe not the nasty ones), but it might take awhile, so bear with me.
Peace, db
Posted by: Mark at April 14, 2004 08:43 AM
For the months of rumor sites frothing for new hardware, and also for the comments under this refreshing article, there's one point that I dont think I've seen offered up regularly enough...
Other than the thrill of faster/stronger/better/more powerful than the previous generation of computers, do the majority of people actually *need* a machine as powerful as a G5? What is it that it can do that can't be done with a high(er) end g4 with a good graphics card? Some people I know are still barely feeling pain in their day-to-day computer use running Panther on their G3 400mhz machines (with extra ram installed, of course)...
I'm sure there are legit uses, such as big video production, large desktop publishing jobs, 3d rendering, etc etc, but for *most of us* the only thing I can think of that really takes a beating nowadays on the older machines is some of the more modern games (see: Halo, UT2k4). Anyone who spends $1-2k extra just for a kick ass games machine on the mac platform, should probably consider buying themselves and a couple of friends playstation 2s instead...
I do a lot of internet/unix related work, a bit of photoshop/iphoto/music creation here and there, and don't feel too much pain on a G4 at all. I'm increasingly thinking that I don't need a G5, even though I'd like one (we all would, i think, but the question here is need, not want).
Perhaps some of the people who are so upset about slow releases and lack of product announcements should think for a minute why they feel so passionate about new hardware, and try and work out whether it's just material craving for latest and greatest, rather than an actual need.
Posted by: seabass at April 14, 2004 01:13 PM
Mark
I agree with you whole heartily about the needs of most people.
Except this is an editorial about G5's, which are not aimed at most people.
Most people have access to iMacs, eMacs, and iBooks which are just fine and are not commented on here.
What we are talking about here are professional machines "workstations' which Apple prices at a premium for professional use.
These are not for everyday use and are not for gaming and play traditionally, (they aren't in the wintel or unix world either).
The market they address is the one which needs the fastest performance and is very very competitive.
I work in this market and spend about $4000 on a machine every year to keep up with my competition in terms of turn around time, quality, and scope.
It is not acceptable for me to have to render a job all night because my choice of computer is impeding my process.
I have a Linux/dual Opteron workstation, and it makes me mad that I end up working on my Maya 3D work on that computer just because it has a professional ATI fireGL graphic card in it.
I mean that is really the only difference between it and the G5.
They are both are pretty powerful 2Ghz machines apart from that.
This is the market a workstation is sold to, and it is unacceptable for Apple to sell these machines crippled, at the same price as their competitors; using standard parts, which their competitors offer for less.
Posted by: MidnightCheese at April 14, 2004 02:49 PM
I'm surprised the article didn't discuss the 64-bit issue. Had Apple been able to release a 64-bit version of OSX at the same time of the initial realease of the G5, I think Apple would have come closer to breaking the "performance/price ratio" problem that the article speaks of.
Posted by: Bender J. Robot at April 14, 2004 05:00 PM
I'm still waiting for the "killer" Mac to compare to the PPC 9600 (1998).
Expandability is the key - I want lots of RAM slots, PCI slots (none of this low-voltage-only crap), and lots of HARD DRIVE BAYS.
Posted by: Tyler at April 14, 2004 05:38 PM
Well I know this has been said many times on here, but in case someone at Apple is looking at this and counting, I'll drop my 2 cents in the hat.
I too am waiting for a speed bump and at least a rev B. I bought a rev A G4 and will never do it again. It hasn't caused too many problems, but I missed out on a lot of stuff that made it into later revisions that have caused me a few headaches. And the G5 problems seems MUCH worse with line noise, odd fan/power supply noises....unacceptable, especially given that a solution has yet to be found.
The crappy video card is unacceptable. My sense is that they want to advertise the low price but then nickel-and-dime you for things like the graphics card. That's annoying and dishonest. I hate feeling cheated, and no it's not clever marketing, nor do I care if everyone else does it, too.
The lack of drive bays doesn't affect me too much but I certainly do see it as an issue.
The firewire ports all being on the same channel is a huge issue. As an amateur video editor, I wouldn't want to saturate my FW (with video and HDs) to the point of it lagging with the video or something.
Another real issue is that amongst my friends, I am the only Apple user. They know I pay a fortune for my Macs and it's embarassing if my Mac doesn't totally destroy their cheapo PC. If it costs be an arm and a leg to get it up to par, and it doesn't totally destroy them, what did I pay for? The experience? Yeah, OS X is a great OS, but the more I learn unix and linux the more I consider buying an AMD machine instead of a G5. I'm using a four year old PM G4 @ 400 mhz right now and refuse to upgrade until the G5 gets better. If it weren't for Final Cut Pro and OS X, I might not even debate it. I speced out a really nice AMD system yesterday for less than $600 including case, board, ram...everything minus the HD. An ATI All-in-Wonder with tv in/out and a surround-sound audio card...really nice. $600. Why am I paying $2600 for a G5? I could make that AMD machine a dual-processor for less than $1200.
I've been a Mac guy all my life (only 20) and it pains me to think that I just might switch--the other way. They'd be losing a potential customer for the next 30+ years.
Ah well, I'll shut-up now, not like anyone will read this anyway. :-)
Posted by: endicott at April 14, 2004 09:29 PM
Has this changed since the earning statement today? Did the G5s do well?
Posted by: Wendy Rebecca at April 15, 2004 08:29 AM
When Windows Zealot Paul Thurrott agrees with you, you're obviously on the wrong track.
Posted by: nephron at April 15, 2004 11:12 AM
Power Mac sales were up from 2nd quarter a year ago but I think the absolute number 174,000 Power Mac G5s sold is a significant fall from the previous quarter.
Posted by: John Athayde at April 15, 2004 11:14 AM
Note that Apple shipped almost 750,000 macs this last go round, or so they released. iPods topped that. Wouldn't that be one enormous jump compared to the previous numbers?
"Apple shipped 749 thousand Macintosh® units and 807 thousand iPods during the quarter, representing a 5 percent increase in CPU units and a 909 percent increase in iPods over the year-ago quarter."
Posted by: drunkenbatman at April 15, 2004 11:39 AM
Regarding interent-nexus, I still barely have a clue as to who is all linking to this, so thanks for the heads up.
But as to the right track, I'm not the type of person to die of thirst simply because Hitler happened to like a cool drink of water. And, with the hitler analogy, I'm assuming I'm invoking some corollary of Godwin's Law and this discussion has run it's course. :)
Peace,
Posted by: None at April 15, 2004 03:36 PM
I don't know if it's still true, but back when Pentium III-based Xeons were offered in Dell desktops in dual configs, a Dell was significantly more expensive than a similarly-speced dual G4.
Dell once charged $80 for a FireWire card that a user could get for $22 3rd party, didn't offer USB 2, and there are other examples of "hidden expenses" that Dell and other Wintel makers love to use as methods to increase margins while keeping the base ticket price low.
IBM even recently posted ads on its site for a configuration/price on a laptop that was impossible to achieve with their online configurator! The ad was something like $200 less than what was possible.
Apple screws up, like with the snow iBook bugs. So does Dell. I had nothing but problems with two top-of-the-line Dell C810 notebooks. I had to send them in for repairs twice per machine after having them "repaired" by a local Dell-certified repair shop at least twice per machine. Dell's phone support has been, in my experience, definitely inferior when compared to Apple's, although I once got an absolute jerk at Apple.
My Powerbook 550 was rock solid. I used it with OS 9 and it practically never crashed. (I didn't use MS Word 2001, because it loved to freeze on nearly every Mac - surprise surprise. I also used Mozilla for the web, because Explorer liked to freeze, too.) My home dual-450 has been rock solid, too. I especially appreciate the speed boost that I got with my 1.2 GHz PowerLogix card, although the machine can't sleep now because of the card.
Panther is very fast, but I think it is ridiculous to charge Jaguar users full price. It should have been 50% off for them, and 25% off for 10.1 and 10.0 owners. I don't care much for OS X's UI. OS 9 was better. However, I'll take OS X over Windows! I've used Windows at work (I'm a tech) along with Macs, and I've found even OS 9 to be more reliable than Windows 2000 and XP. Malware is a real headache. Even with SpyBot and Ad-Aware, it's difficult to deal with all the security patches, malware, and virus junk. While OS 9 can sometimes crash and burn (numerous crashes can somewhat scramble the system), I've always been able to boot from a CD, get the user's files and Apps/fonts/prefs/etc. moved to a server with AppleTalk, re-initialize, copy the stuff back, do a little bit of configuration, and I'm done.... Much easier than dealing with Windows.
The Mac has always been better than Windows, even with 7.5.x (a buggy OS). It probably always will be, despite Apple's blunders.
Posted by: Alex at April 15, 2004 08:48 PM
I didn't read all the posts, but having read many, along with the main article, I have to include my reaction.
Every pc maker in the world ships rev. a products with a few flaws. If they didn't, there wouldn't be a rev. b. Gateway and Compac often times eol some of their boxes after one rev because the cost to fix the problems was too great when compared to starting from scratch with a new design.
I, like others, think that one of the biggest hits to the pro desktop line is the current PowerBook (even if it is getting long in the tooth). It has become *the* computer at our office. In fact, we hadn't purchased a single desktop in four years until we got a 2Ghz G5 five months ago.
Rev. B should be pretty awesome. I'm glad it has taken them a while to release it too. A lot of that time was spent perfecting the new X Serve with the new 90nm chip. A lot of that experience is going to make it's way into the next rev of the desktop.
As for the lack of more HD expansion in the desktop, the only people I've seen who really need either the speed or the space of a RAID are video people, and more often than not, the video guys I know are using a either a powerbook or a X Serve/X Raid mini rack. Apple is, in my eyes, doing their best not to allow product lines to cross too much - yes, that means there is some difficulty in offering options within a certain category, but it also means that they can better spread demand around their product line, rather than, for example, releasing a desktop which was as effective as or better than an X Server, or an iBook which was really a good substitute for a PowerBook (which is why Apple *needs* to get a G5 chip in a portable).
I dig Macs, but I'm not too blind to smile at some new Wintel kit. I just think few MS boxes are as solid in both build and looks as an Apple product. I also don't think any computer company is doing a stellar job. Hmmm.
Posted by: OzarkMtn at April 16, 2004 07:30 PM
I'm afraid that the next round of G'5's will also be Rev.A's-part 2...
Posted by: Godwins Law at April 17, 2004 07:00 AM
Godwin's Law doesn't count if you use it on purpose. :^)
Posted by: tor at April 17, 2004 08:15 AM
I think it's pretty clear you just don't get it
Power is the ablity to get the job done.
I am writting this on my g3 ibook, i have a G4 powermac at home.
I don't need to upgrade to a g5 just yet because these two machines do there job to a T
I use my ibook for the net word processing e.t.c and my g4 for fcp4. They don't crash/get virus/adware/spyware/e.t.c.
i'll take a mac over a pc anyday.
( i write this at 10:00pm on a saturday nite whilst cleaning a PC network that has gone down due to a virus system wide hit )
I just thank god for my mac(s)
Posted by: bob dobson at April 17, 2004 09:57 AM
Bollocks, not bullox. :P
Posted by: Scott Stevenson at April 19, 2004 12:16 AM
This article is well written, but it doesn't touch on the main reason the G5s hasn't had blockbuster sales: we've been in a recession for a while.
Plenty of people that typically buy a new machines every two years are holding out for three, four or five years. I don't think it's a situation where typical PowerMac buyers have $3k sitting around and decide to spend it on something else.
- Scott
Posted by: Chris Feeger at April 20, 2004 11:39 PM
Thanks for your article! and it's interesting to read everyone's feedback. In a hyped up world where nobody seems to advertise anything truthfully (can YOU think of ANYONE who does?), it is good to hear some dissenting voices.
Rare as it might be, we bought a 1.8 single G5, 6 months back as a switcher, and have had a heck of a time beset with a mysterious hardware fault (resulting in crashes, no sound, data loss, etc). Four repairs, dozens of calls, emails, letters & a couple of logic boards later & we finally got our money back.
The fault (and G5 users might want to check this for themselves) starts with a failure with sound line-in. Try plugging in sound and see if it records okay. It should do, shouldn't it? If not, you should talk with Apple.
Having had a nightmare run with the G5, I think I'll take the advice about avoiding first gen models and go for a G4. Yet, despite seeing the dark side of the Big A, I still believe OSX is the best OS out there. For that reason alone, it's worth you owning a Mac of any kind. Good luck guys!
Chris
Posted by: O'Clark at April 21, 2004 04:15 AM
You are just a whining bitch. A real armchair CEO. Why don't you go buy a windoze machine, Apple will do just fine without you and I won't have to read another of these.
Posted by: Sober Mac User at April 21, 2004 06:08 AM
This entry for the most part does not really state anything new. Plus you answered your own question with the not so good sales number in that some customers are becoming gunshy about rev. A products. But it is a balanced and fair article except as others pointed out, the economy has had an impact. I myself am trying to string out my Quicksilver 2002 Dual Gig for as long as possible and at this juncture, I am better off holding off on a G5 until even the 90nm hits a future revision to clear off the initial round of errata. Regardless, it is good to hear rational comments taking place and only a few zealot type responses such as O'Clark's one. It is not about being an armchair CEO. Some of this is just common sense which is something you (O'Clark) clearly lack.
As for the loss of drive bays and an optical from the MDD, this is clearly due to the cooling system required for the 1st gen G5's. That massive heatsink takes up excessive space. Anyone can see that the case has been overengineered for the future where once they can get cooler chips, reducing the size of the heatsinks will allow internal reorganization that can open up another "drive zone" for another optical and two more drive bays. Me thinks that probably will not happen for another year though and might end up being reserved for the future "G6" system.
As for the processor speed stagnation, they could have given us lower clock from the get go and offered a product refresh earlier in the year to where things are currently at to give it the appearance of progress. Instead, they did the right thing and gave us the max as it seems they knew of the aggressive IBM roadmap in wanting to move from 130nm to 90nm in addition to the objective that Jobs mentioned back in WWDC about getting to 3GHz an year later. That left little wiggle room in terms of product refresh. Given IBM's fab problems with the 90nm G5's, that obviously caused scheduling problems with a product refresh that should have happened (i.e. 2.5GHz top end) earlier this year. As for 3GHz, is that not where the PPC 980 is supposed to start at? Entirely new chip that might be more worthy of holding the name, G6. There is no way that they could even announce that processor at WWDC and with the current yield issues with the 90nm chips, it is going to be a stretch unless of course, Jobs pulls out the semantics and announces but says won't ship for x-months.
I find it ironically funny that Mac heads have been asking for Apple to be more open (thus the incredible rumormongering) are now complaining about this oh so early announcement when he came straight out and stated this. I guess either way, it gives someone the ability to complain. I do not disgaree with you about mindshare either. All it takes is leaving the confines of the Mac web and you see and hear the same ignorant statements that are based on outdated information. Whose fault is that though? I lay the blame on Apple's inept marketing and public relations. The iPod thing is a great example of incompetent PR. Every pundit only focuses on the iPod/iTMS relationship. Yet that is only one component. People are still free to order real physical media and rip that off onto their iPod. And you will still have illegal downloaders putting their stuff on it. Yet Apple PR does not even try to refute the negative spin of how the iPod is limiting choice from online purchases. You end up back at the same starting point and make no mindshare inroads at all while goons like RealNetworks Rob Glaser go off and spout off only half of the truth. Guess who the larger majority are going to be believe?
While this entry was mainly about the G5, Apple needs to fix one major glaring software problem. That atrocity known as the Finder. Someone took what was one of the companies crown jewels and turned it into a pile of crap. That is a sore excuse for a key application that everyone uses. What many don't grok is the way the Finder worked in Mac OS 9 and earlier. That is what defined a great deal of what made the Mac a pleasant user experience. The Mac OS X Finder looks like a gussied up version but so many key refinements were lost and are only slowly being addressed. This is the problem with many Windows users. They think making it look like the Finder with software addons equates to being a Mac. I am sorry but it might look like it but it sure does not work like it. This is the same difference between the OS 9 and OS X experience just from a Finder experience (not talking about the threading and multitasking or the crashability factors which were all underlying plumbing issues). Being as I came over from the PC during the 90's for a better experience that the Mac offered, I now feel like I am using Windows again because of the way the Finder "feels" when performing tasks.
I used to drink the Apple koolaid from 1996-2001 but learned over that time that lot of what I thought would happen just did not. For all the innovative products that have been released, they still have not been able to change the mindset of many on the otherside of the divide. With how craptacular Windows is with all the virus problems going on, people are still willing to put up with that. Apple has given up so many opportunities that it isn't funny. Now I walk the line in between. Apple has good and bad points. They make incredible products but there is a disconnect in the area of product marketing and PR. Until that problem is fixed, Apple could surprise everyone and put out a 3GHz PPC 980 in a few months and this still would not translate into a sizeable increase in unit sales over the core numbers. Most PC users that always say they would buy one if Apple dropped the price are only lying to themselves because even if Apple were to release a PowerMac G5 entry level tower at $999, they would still say that is too expensive compared to a PC. Apple would need to drop the price to match the cheapest entry level model because quite a lot of regular Windows users do not know the difference between Apple's product differentiation between consumer and pro models. Again, inept marketing and PR.
Posted by: O'Clark at April 21, 2004 01:29 PM
Are you a zealot if you tell the truth? This kind of article is bad for Apple and there is no reason behind it. Is he saying anything no one knows? So what is the point.
Common sense? A potential switcher come along and reads this and thinks twice and hurts sales even more and hurting Apple. That is the only good coming from his whining.
Either buy it or don't but no one wants to hear his whiney rantings about it and no good can come of it. So they did not sell 200,000. Big deal. 174,000 people think they are fine machines in this quarter alone and that is still plenty.
Posted by: desperatelyseekingpower at April 21, 2004 08:37 PM
174,000 is a pathetic number considering how fine apple makes this machine out to be. i switched from apple when they couldn't get past 500mhz- i was a maccie for fifteen years before that, i must admit there is no compelling reason to even look at the g5, god just look at that lame two channel sound- you can't even get a true dvd experience watching a dvd movie- pro machine??only for pro kiddies.Better luck next machine apple.
Posted by: Jim Rankle at April 23, 2004 07:41 PM
O'Clueless wrote : "Either buy it or don't but no one wants to hear his whiney rantings about it and no good can come of it. So they did not sell 200,000. Big deal. 174,000 people think they are fine machines in this quarter alone and that is still plenty."
All I see is someone not liking what he hears and making a strawman argument. That is usually a zealot. db has been around for a long time on some of the mac lists (hey db, remember the thread ender incident?), even before his drunkenbatman name was just listed in his sig. Watching who he butts heads with is a good way to know who is not worth listening to. IMHO most people who know him from some of the lists would feel the same.
The rest of what you said is done now I have seen a lot of articles now about the poor sales of the G5 around the mac web and Steve Jobs has said it now.
Posted by: Heavyboots at May 5, 2004 05:35 AM
Add another to your estimated Rev B G5 sales. We have a single G5 at work sitting on my desktop. It is a fabulous machine, particularly as of 10.3.3 when a few really inexplicable oddities went away suddenly. But I won't be buying in bulk until the rev B's. And yes, we have one Blue & White rev A G3 at work too which *will not* run OS X. Having now replaced everything except the actual motherboard and the CPU, I'm forced to conclude that something is hosed on it and won't put up with the demands OS X makes despite it supposedly being OS X compatible and having been a champ in OS 9 for years. Which is a large part of the reason I'm waiting for Rev B before I buy G5's in bulk. It's not the performance now that's a huge concern so much as the performance 5 years from now when you're trying to foist it off on the editor because it's still barely fast enough to run Office XIV or whatever...
I'm also waiting to upgrade my home G4 based on UT2k4's decent but not perfect performance on a 2x2ghz G5. I want my 1600x1200 with everything on! :-P
Posted by: Jay Stanton at May 8, 2004 07:15 PM
It is absolutely insane that nothing has changed in almost a year. If they can't ramp up the MHz most reasonable people will accept that.
But who would pay the same amount for one of these as someone did a year ago? Only in Apples world do you pay full price for year old technology.
Posted by: Martin at June 11, 2004 09:12 PM
I gotta be honest with you. I was a Mac guy for a lotta years - since the 604 days, beige G3, blue & white, gray and most recently, a 1.25 gHz G4. I program for both Windows and Macs, interactive multimedia apps. My qualm is this - Apple has been claiming in their ads, ever since the transition from beige to blue&white, that Macs are generally faster than PC's. I used to believe this even though I have never seen this to be the case. Again, I gotta be honest here. The programs we create always run faster (and with fewer errors) than on the Mac. In fact, for a while there, in the OS8 - OS9 days, you could literally take a program, put it on 10 different Macs and get 10 different results. This made it very difficult for me to defend my Mac stance to the PC goons that I work with.
But then, OSX was coming out. I couldn't wait to throw it in the face of the PC goons once we had a more stable, more robust, faster, better looking OS than them! ...Panther is now out, and I am still waiting... (Well, it is better looking...) I can't quite believe it, but the PC's are currently more stable and faster than the Macs! We almost never (if ever) have a Windows2000 or XP machine crash - and these are P4 and xeon workstations that get thrashed pretty hard with encoding & rendering & such. I wish I could say the same for our Macs but I just can't. At least yet. I now do the same programming and authoring on a Windows XP machine that I used to do on the Mac. Now that I am used to the environment & interface, it ain't bad. Not as attractive as the Mac OS for sure, but not bad. As for speed -- it is a 3.2 gHz hyperthreading p4 with a gig of ram, 800mhz bus and 2 RAID zero arrays and an ATI video board with 256 MB VRAM. I gotta tell ya - this thing absolutely smokes any Mac I've ever seen... (You can't even have this type of configuration with a G5 without going external drive bays and spending around 6k! No way - I can't justify it any longer) This PC is more current than my G4, but I have used a co-worker's G5 plenty, and I still think it's sluggish and buggy. What the hell is going on Apple??? I'm not giving up on the Mac, but as for now, I'm honestly getting better, more consistent performance from this P4 box. In the same breath though, we've already seen the Mac 64 bit processor, and have been impressed very little. I caught a glimpse of the AMD Opteron 64 bit proc (which seems to be stomping everything in its path), and I don't even want to think about what the Intel Itanium processor is going to do...
Judging by some of the blogs here, it seems like many of the Mac faithful have not actually seen a PC for 4 or 5 years. In that case, I agree with some people's comments, but only if we're comparing current Macs to 4 year old PC's - I hate to say it... For those of you who don't believe me, believe me... I know we've all seen some crappy pc's out there, but there are also some seriously smokin' ones. It's a much more diverse hardware market though - whereas Apple is the only company that sells apple computers. (Check out alienware.com - they build some of the more bitchin Windows boxes out there.)
We'll see when/if the 3gHz proc hits, and hopefully some major revisions will have taken place. I'd love to switch BACK to a Mac, (and maybe even be in a 'switcher' ad), but I'm just not going there until performance (breath) catches up to the PC and prices come down.






I have been waiting until they release the three gigahertz too that is too big of a MHz bump not to wait for.